In Trials you will notice that they don't have seats and if you could ride up a wall then I would be quite happy to see you sat down. The purpose of standing up - and MotoX riders are the worst offenders apparently - is to lower the centre of gravity and allow you to move the CoG forwards, backwards and to the sides quickly. This you cannot do if you're sat down. Yes, there are Green Laning fiends out there that like to sit down and get on very well. They are all experienced and know what they are doing. Hello Hampsterracing and Big Jim! By all means sit down all the time but you will never control a bike the way Timus, Merlin and Knightrider can.
Some of us ride the lanes and try to get through them without putting a foot down. This is Trials Style and Trials Riders are far more skilful than Enduro/MotoX Riders - Knighter is an ex-Trials Champion I believe! Enduro riders combine Trials skills and MotoX speed to survive the lanes but don't care whether they put a foot down or not. MotoX riders just like to go fast.
Take the p!ss as much as you want but the day you ride a bike as well as Timus, Merlin or Knightrider will be a long way away if you don't stand up.
In three of the pictures you've posted the Enduro riders have a foot out. Cyril is on the flat and so can be seen to be sat down. The Trials rider is sat down for the photograph and Sonny can be seen to be stood up on 191-096 - well done!
Now if you want to be really clever, find some photographs of a successful Trials rider in a competition where he's sat down.
Next time we do a tricky lane I'll video you riding up it and then you'll see how 'out of control' you are compared with other riders.
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I do know where I'm going, but the track it will decide, It's not the destination, It's the glory of the ride!
Please read the following and you will see your wrong Andy
you will raise the RAISE the centre of gravity and not LOWER it by standing up.
Center of Gravity Definition: Center of Gravity
The center of gravity of a collection of masses is the point where all the weight of the object can be considered to be concentrated. If (xcg,ycg) are the coordinates of the centre of gravity of a collection of point masses m1 , m2 , etc, located at coordinates ( x1,y1 ), ( x2,y2 ), respectively, then:
Equations (8.6) and (8.6) imply that the torque about the origin would be the same if the entire weight acted through the center of gravity instead of acting through the individual masses.
Solving for the x -coordinate of the center of gravity:
xcg = . (7)
Similary, the y-coordinate of the centre of gravity is:
ycg = . (8)
Note:
Eqs(8.6,8.6) also imply that the torque due to gravity about the center of gravity is zero. The force of gravity, F = mg , acts through the center of gravity so there is no moment arm and therefore no torque due to gravity about the center of gravity. An extended body can be treated in exactly the same way simply by considering it to be made up of a collection of smaller masses ``stuck together". The centre of gravity is not necessarily inside the object. In problems involving extended bodies and gravity, one can impose the equilibrium condition by assuming that the entire weight of the bodies acts through the centre of gravity. In order to balance an object against gravity with a single force, that force must lie in a vertical line that runs through the centre of gravity. For objects with symmetry, the center of gravity is always located along the axis of symmetry. The center of gravity of an extended body or system of masses is also distinguished by the fact that it will remain at rest or moving at constant velocity unless the body is acted on by a net external force.
If anyone has any confusion as to correct positioning on a bike, a few incorrect positions are demonstrated by Sonny below
I totally agree that you raise the centre of gravity of the combination of rider and machine but you lower the CoG of the bike. You also seperate the rider from the bike making it easier to move the CoG around the bike more quickly.
I'm very happy for you to carry on sitting down and paddling but don't you feel a touch envious of those who make it look easy 'cos they're standing up?
Next trip....Muchlarnick and a team of standers and a team of sitters....want to bet which team'd get to the top?
Sitting works perfectly well for the flatter sections but it's no good on the rocky climbs. I would prefer to stand whenever off road as it allows for more rapid steering manoeuvres
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I do know where I'm going, but the track it will decide, It's not the destination, It's the glory of the ride!
We could be a pair of parrots! "who's a clever boy then??"
OK, enoughs enough. Joke is now over. Andy we was only havin a larf oppo. Thought that you were used to me and Phil by now?? Don't try to change us, many psychiatrists have tried and failed miserably! mmmwwwhhhaaaaaaaa........
My two-pennyworth now. I think that if the guy in Sonnys pic could stand up his c.o.g would be so divorced from the bike that he would either fall backwards or, if he was strong enough to stay with the bike he would fall backwards and take the bike with him.
Anyway, if you enjoy what you do then carry on doing it.
All of your photos prove me right as they're riding bikes with no seats and they are moving their weight about to control the bike. The one going up vertically is in exactly the right place, the others have shifted their weight back to stop the front of the bike from dropping too quickly.
Thanks for finding the photos that prove me right.
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I do know where I'm going, but the track it will decide, It's not the destination, It's the glory of the ride!
My two pennies worth. You will notice from the trial riders pictures that everyone would practically be sat down if they had seats of normal height. By all means sit down but keep your feet on the pegs and keep a good pressure on them and be ready to get your backside fully off the seat. I always ride this way without problem what ever bike I'm on. In other words stand up but only when you have to Cheers Rob PS Hi everyone some of you will know me others won't.
Hi to you too. Good point well put. Following Paul Studley a week or 2 ago - undoubtedly a very skilled and experienced rider, I remember that he sits alot of the time, but always has his weight on the pegs, and as you say is quick to get his arse of the seat when the terrain requires. Mike Quinn is another one - theres a couple of pictures of him in the ten tors ride report sitting where Rom and myself stood up. Standing on the pegs and using your weight independantly of the bikes weight is an important skill to learn - if you never stand you wont improve much - but the really good guys only stand up when they need to.
As stated earlier in this thread it was "supposed" to be a bit of a light hearted piss take but i didn't realise so many people had sense of humour by-passes.
So being serious and HONEST. The reason i do not stand up alot is because both my knees are shagged from years of playing rugby and i am very overweight. I really struggle standing especially on steep inclines. Yes the bar risers have improved my situation to a degree but i need to lose weight and build up my cardio vascular and muscle condition, hence the cycling etc. I KNOW what i have to do to improve my riding.
Having people making "subtle"?? comments doesn't really help but i don't get all defensive about it and I try to make light of it by, surprise surprise "TAKING THE PISS"!!
But don't expect me to just sit back and take all this "holier than thou" crap. I don't give a flying **** if im not as good as other riders. I just want to ride my bike and have a laugh. If others have a problem with that then tough. I put up with 27 years of bull**** from dick head officers in the Navy, i ain't putting up with it in a pursuit that i do to "enjoy" myself.
Sonny tis a serious matter don't you know? I've seen people come and quickly dissapear from trail riding all for the sake of a little advise to make their day more enjoyable. So all I will say is, as long as you're laughting your little socks off, ride as you please
And, as is the case with so many things in life, the better you are at it the more fun it becomes!! At least you've sparked a bit of debate, which cant be a bad thing.
Who's "Holier then Thou"? And who is Thou anyway!?!
In the old days Trials bikes were just modified road bikes. I used an old BSA B40 for several years very successfully. The mods were longer travel suspension, smaller seat, lighten the bike and put trials tyres on it. Over the years Trials bikes have evolved so that they don't have a seat as such. There's no padding worth mentioning on a modern trials bike and the 'seat' height has dropped to a point where most of us old uns would be unable to stand up from. The reason for the lack of seating is so that a rider can move around. If they wanted to be sat then bikes would have stayed very much as a road bike with a normal seat.
I'm quite happy that my point has been made and if you chose to sit down a lot then please do, it's your bike, you're riding it and you should be enjoying it.
By the by, Paul Studley is an ex-works assisted Trials rider and has a duff back. Most of us would be hard pressed to try and do what he does even if we stood up to do it. Experience tells when it comes to riding off road.
So all we need to do now is encourage Withybrook to get a more suitable bike - especially one with an electric leg as he puts it!
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I do know where I'm going, but the track it will decide, It's not the destination, It's the glory of the ride!
Now i'm really confused stand up or sit down????stand up or sit down????stand up or sit down????stand up or sit down????stand up or sit down????stand up or sit down????stand up or sit down????stand up or sit down????stand up or sit down????
some guidelines for a happy day below.
1. At Lunch Time, Sit In Your Parked Car With Sunglasses on and point a Hair Dryer At Passing Cars. See If They Slow Down.
2. Page Yourself Over The Intercom. Don't DisguiseYour Voice. !
3. Every Time Someone Asks You To Do Something, ask If They Want Fries with that.
4. Put Decaf In The Coffee Maker For 3 Weeks . Once Everyone has Gotten Over Their Caffeine Addictions, Switch to Espresso.
5. On all your cheque stubs, write ' For Marijuana'
6. Skip down the street Rather Than Walk and see how many looks you get.
7. Order a Diet Water whenever you go out to eat,with a serious face.
8. Specify That Your Drive-through Order Is 'To Go'.
9. Sing Along At The Opera.
10. Five Days In Advance, Tell Your Friends You Can't Attend Their Party Because You have a headache.
11. When The Money Comes Out The ATM, Scream 'I Won! I Won!'
12. When Leaving the Zoo, Start Running towards the Car Park, Yelling 'Run For Your Lives! They're Loose!'
13. Tell Your Children Over Dinner, 'Due To The Economy, We Are Going To Have To Let One Of You Go.' And The Final Way To Keep A Healthy Level Of Insanity 14.PICK UP A BOX OF C*NDOMS AT THE PHARMACY, GO TO THE COUNTER AND ASK WHERE THE FITTING ROOM IS.
And why are you sat down??? tut tut
Don't try to change us, many psychiatrists have tried and failed miserably! mmmwwwhhhaaaaaaaa........
